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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 8:35:52 GMT -5
Yeah, start with an injector check with a noid light. Any one will do. If they are firing but no fuel being delivered, and you have pressure to the rail, then the injectors are clogged. It can happen when an engine sits. But that doesn't explain no spark.
If they aren't firing then the computer probably isn't commanding the ignition side, either.
I'd like to know then if the crank trigger is being read..... without that you won't get anything. If it is being read, then maybe a security issue. I'd have to research that. No experience on 04 GM sedans.
One other thing. Are you SURE that you have a good ground to the body of the ICM? That could give you fits of it is corroded. Also, there are two different ICM's and one has a ground wire. If those are different between the two engines you may not get a start. Is this one from the old engine? I'd use that one if possible.
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Post by COMpulse on Oct 26, 2017 9:29:00 GMT -5
The new engine came with coil pack on it, and the module is mounted to the bottom of the coil pack. I did not transfer my old coil pack (or injectors, plugs, or fuel rails). It's mounted to a tensioner bracket for one of the belts. It looks like a mild pain in the ass to swap them. Probably a 20 minute job with the engine out of the car, but I guess most car projects are like that. The wiring for the coil pack also connects to the crank/cam sensors, and a ground to the engine block.
I think all my grounds are good. I only really remember one or two ground wires. I suppose the plugs wouldn't fire if the block wasn't grounded. But I've got everything connected. My multimeter would show connectivity between the ground on the battery and the block, right?
I will pick up a noid light tonight.
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 9:46:36 GMT -5
The fact that it cranks would lead me to think the engine grounds are sufficient. I'm more concerned with the ICM ground. It may ground through it's case and may be corroded.
Do the noid test and that will tell us more.
It seems like a control problem rather than supply, both for fuel and for spark. I'm betting the coil packs are getting no signal at this point. Once we know we can begin to isolate the why.
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 9:51:50 GMT -5
Once you test the injector signal I would next do the tests on the ICM in that guide. I am really suspicious of that. I need to see if you would get injectors without a proper signal from your ICM. I'm learning a lot about the 3.8. LOL Oh, check the fuse, too. 15 amp, says elec I think.
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Post by COMpulse on Oct 26, 2017 17:52:01 GMT -5
Noid light result: The light does not illuminate until cranking is released.
I'm using the remote-start to watch the light while the engine cranks. The light only lights up for a moment, once, after the engine stops cranking.
Since this doesn't fit any scenario I've read about, I'm leaning more toward security system and less toward ICM, I think.
Still frustrated as all hell.
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Post by SNOtwistR on Oct 26, 2017 18:22:03 GMT -5
Just a thought but with switching engine the ECU would be an issue as well. Is there some sequence to completely clear its memory? I realize disconnecting battery for 15 minutes or so can do some things to ECU but does it really clear for such an instance of complete engine change? I know in the past old days I would grab the ECU from the engine I was installing, but this was many moons ago. SNO
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 19:36:50 GMT -5
The only thing the computer 'sees' is the sensors and the ICU. If those are the same on both engines, it shouldn't matter to it.
Ignition Control Module (ICM) and Ignition Coils Three dual tower ignition coils are mounted to the ICM, and are serviced individually. The ICM performs the following functions:
• The ICM supplies a power and low reference circuit to the CMP and CKP sensors.
• The ICM determines the correct direction of the crankshaft rotation, and cuts spark and fuel delivery to prevent damage from backfiring if reverse rotation is detected.
• The ICM determines the correct coil triggering sequence, based on how many 18 X ON-OFF pulses occur during a sync pulse. This coil sequencing occurs at start-up, and is remembered by the ICM. After the engine is running, the ICM will continue to trigger the coils without the CKP sync pulse.
• The ICM inputs 18 X and 3 X reference signals to the PCM.
• The 3 X reference signal is also known as the low resolution engine speed signal. This signal is generated by the ICM using an internal divide-by-six circuit. This circuit divides the 18 X signal pulses by 6. This divider circuit will not begin operation without a sync pulse present at start-up, and without 18 X and 3 X reference signals no fuel injection will occur.
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 19:40:23 GMT -5
For resetting factory security fault:
Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF. Attempt to start the engine, then release the key to ON (vehicle will not start).
Leave the key ON
Observe the SECURITY telltale(security light), after approximately 10 minutes the telltale will turn OFF. Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds .
Repeat steps 1 through 4 two more times for a total of 3 cycles/30 minutes (the vehicle is now ready to relearn the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or passwords on the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK). IMPORTANT: The vehicle learns the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or password ***** the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK. You must turn the ignition OFF before attempting to start the vehicle.
Start the engine (the vehicle has now learned the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or password). With a scan tool, clear any DTCs if needed (history DTCs will self clear after 100 ignition cycles).
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 19:42:34 GMT -5
There are two critical ground connections. One is for the PCM, and one is for the ICM. Make sure both are spotless.
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 26, 2017 19:56:33 GMT -5
If you haven't done the passlock reset, definitely do it first.
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Post by COMpulse on Oct 27, 2017 5:20:40 GMT -5
Pretty sure I know where those two grounds are. I know the ICM grounds to the block. And there's a ground wire from the bellhousing to the wiring harness. I will check grounds tonight with a multimeter if I can find mine (or buy another one).
I will try the passlock reset again this weekend or tonight with my other car jumping it. Not positive that I got it right all 3 times. Battery is getting lower in the old car. Reading 11.4 volts now.
I've only checked one plug and one injector (#5 i think). I will probably check a couple more. At some point, it seems like I should just swap the ignition from the old car. Worst case, same situation unless I break something.
I thought the 18x and 3x signals came from the crank position sensor.
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Post by philg on Oct 27, 2017 7:41:53 GMT -5
For resetting factory security fault: Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF. Attempt to start the engine, then release the key to ON (vehicle will not start). Leave the key ON Observe the SECURITY telltale(security light), after approximately 10 minutes the telltale will turn OFF. Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds . Repeat steps 1 through 4 two more times for a total of 3 cycles/30 minutes (the vehicle is now ready to relearn the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or passwords on the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK). IMPORTANT: The vehicle learns the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or password ***** the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK. You must turn the ignition OFF before attempting to start the vehicle. Start the engine (the vehicle has now learned the Passlock(TM) Sensor Data Code and/or password). With a scan tool, clear any DTCs if needed (history DTCs will self clear after 100 ignition cycles). I had to do the above to my daughters 02 Sunfire a few years ago after swapping ignition key switches. It took several attempts but eventually I got it.
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Post by philg on Oct 27, 2017 7:43:11 GMT -5
You really need to get a battery charger on that battery soon.
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Post by COMpulse on Oct 27, 2017 8:40:44 GMT -5
Agreed.
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Post by flylear45 on Oct 27, 2017 15:13:30 GMT -5
Pretty sure I know where those two grounds are. I know the ICM grounds to the block. And there's a ground wire from the bellhousing to the wiring harness. I will check grounds tonight with a multimeter if I can find mine (or buy another one). I will try the passlock reset again this weekend or tonight with my other car jumping it. Not positive that I got it right all 3 times. Battery is getting lower in the old car. Reading 11.4 volts now. I've only checked one plug and one injector (#5 i think). I will probably check a couple more. At some point, it seems like I should just swap the ignition from the old car. Worst case, same situation unless I break something. I thought the 18x and 3x signals came from the crank position sensor. I would test before swapping parts, personally. Pull those grounds and clean them with sandpaper until they shine for starters, though. One injector should tell the story here, IMHO. If we were tracking a mis-fire it might be different. When you get to the root of this problem the car will DO something when cranking. It might be a crank sensor. It might be ICM. It might be a wiring problem. We need more testing to know more. For now you know you have cranking, and you have fuel pressure at the rail. That's a start. The ICM produces the low voltage signal used by the CPS,then sends it to the ECU, so it could be an either/or type of thing. If cleaning grounds fails, then it's time to test the ICM. At least to test for a crank position signal before you change the ICM's if it's a pain to do.
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